Karl Vaters 2: Thinking Like a Small-Church Pastor

The following is from Chris Bolinger’s fall 2015 interview with Karl Vaters, whose 2012 book The Grasshopper Myth has led to a twice-weekly Christianity Today blog and frequent speaking engagements…in addition to his many responsibilities as the pastor of a church of around 200. That church is in what Vaters calls the Megachurch Central region of southern California, and emulating the church growth practices of his larger neighbors led him to doubt his abilities and even his calling as a pastor.

The complete interview is available in Today’s Vital Church, Volume 2.


Bolinger: You are comfortable being identified as a small-church pastor, but it wasn’t always that way. Tell us about your journey.

Vaters: A little less than 10 years ago, I went through a really tough season of doubting my abilities, doubting my calling, doubting the validity of the church growth movement, and feeling really discouraged and frustrated. Through a long process of getting people to help me and, ultimately, to help me redefine success, I finally decided that I needed to figure out how to lead a small church that’s healthy.

90% of the churches in the world are under 200 [in attendance]. 80% are under 100. And yet we are often led to believe that, if our church is small or if it is not growing at the pace that we think it should grow, we’re broken.

The mantra for the church growth movement is: Think like a big church. Thinking like a big church nearly killed our church. It put a distance between me and the congregation. It had me doing ministry and administration for which I’m not built or gifted and that sucks my soul dry.

Bolinger: Why did you get swept up in the church growth movement? Has that happened to a lot of small-church pastors?

Vaters: I got swept up into it because I believe that the church should grow. I still believe that. I still want my church to grow. I’m not opposed to church growth; I’m absolutely pro church growth. Actual “real” church growth – not transfer growth – means people being saved, being rescued from hell into heaven, coming into the Kingdom of God. There are eternal lives at stake here. The church must grow because people need to be saved and brought through a redemptive relationship with Jesus.

It’s a logical thing. I’m in the business of church, the business of loving God, loving others, and bringing others into a relationship where they love God and love others. If I’m doing that well and people are being reached for Jesus, then there will be more people in front of me on Sunday morning. If that continues to happen – if my church is healthy and reaching the community and people are being saved – then my church will get bigger.

Conversely, if my church is not getting bigger, then I must be missing out on something about the Great Commission. So a growing church means a healthy church. All healthy things grow. That’s why I got caught up in it.

I think that most small-church pastors have bought into the same conclusion because it makes sense when you first hear it. If I’m reaching people for Jesus, then there will be more people in the church. If there are not more people in the church, then I must not be reaching people for Jesus. That makes sense until you start looking at reality. Can we really say that 90% of my peers in ministry are failures because 90% of the churches in the world are small?

I know too many pastors to think that 90% of the pastors out there are failures in ministry. Maybe 10% shouldn’t be in ministry, not 90%.

I went through a lot of trauma trying to sort all of that out, because I was working really hard to make my church grow and it wasn’t happening.

Bolinger: Tell us more about the downsides to you personally of thinking like a big church and acting like a big-church pastor.

Vaters: The “think like a big church” approach caused several problems.

The first problem for me occurred when my church did start getting bigger. For a while, we were drawing almost 400 people. When it got that big, I had to switch from pastoral mode to management mode, and I started operating completely out of my gifting, out of my skill set, and out of my personality type. I was miserable. I became an unhealthy pastor.

At conferences that talk about thinking like a big church, they talk about moving out of “shepherd mode” into “rancher mode”, or out of “pastoring mode” into “management mode”. Once you hit 200, you can’t minister to every single person individually. You have to have “under-shepherds” who do the ministry for you. That is absolutely true and absolutely a good thing to do. I am for that. But, when you do that and your church is only 100 people, you start distancing yourself from people.

Here’s an example. At conferences, they talk about how to do announcements in your worship service. They tell you that most churches do their announcements wrong. They get up and they give the youth group announcements, the men’s group announcements, the women’s group announcements, the kids’ group announcements. Every time they give one of those, they are leaving half or more of the church out. By the time they are done with the announcements, everyone is tuned out. The recommendation at the conference is that the only announcements you give on a Sunday morning are the ones that apply to absolutely everybody in the room. Tell them to read the bulletin for the rest.

I thought, “That makes sense. I don’t want to alienate people. I don’t want to bore them.” So I started following the recommendation. Here’s what I discovered: in a small church, if you tell a ministry director that you are not going to make his or her announcement, wear a cup, because you are going to get hurt. In a big church, the recommendation makes sense. But when you have 50 or 100 people in front of you on a Sunday, there is no reason not to make every announcement.

The person who made the recommendation at the conference comes out of a church of 3,000 people. In that kind of a church, there are so many people and so many programs that you have to trim back announcements. In a small church, there are different rules. There are only four announcements in a small church! You’re going to cut three of them because they don’t apply to the whole church?

So I made a change to announcements that pushed people away. I gave pastoral care responsibilities to others, and then people who were used to contacting me anytime couldn’t get ahold of their pastor. In a church of 100 people, when the pastor isn’t answering the phone, it seems like the pastor is being arrogant.

I nearly killed my healthy church by doing “big church” things before they were necessary. We have this idea that doing things in a “big church” way will make the church big. That’s backwards. When a church gets big, you do things in a “big church” way so that you don’t lose the gain. Behaving like a business manager instead of a pastor won’t help a church of 50 grow.

Stick to pastoring well, and raise disciples so that, if your church gets big, then you have people to whom you can hand stuff off.

Karl Vaters 1: Big Churches vs. Small Churches

The following is from Chris Bolinger’s fall 2015 interview with Karl Vaters, whose 2012 book The Grasshopper Myth has led to a twice-weekly Christianity Today blog and frequent speaking engagements…in addition to his many responsibilities as the pastor of a church of around 200. That church is in what Vaters calls the Megachurch Central region of southern California, and emulating the church growth practices of his larger neighbors led him to doubt his abilities and even his calling as a pastor.

The complete interview is available in Today’s Vital Church, Volume 2.


Vaters: For the past 23 years, I have been pastoring in Fountain Valley, California, which is eight miles south of Disneyland. It is in Orange County, which is “Megachurch Central”. In his book The Purpose Driven Church, Rick Warren wrote that he researched the best place in America to build a big church, and the result was Orange County, California.

Rick started here about six or seven years before I came here. He has built Saddleback Church. I have taken a church from 35 to not quite 200. If you’re not in Rick Warren’s back yard, then 35 to 200 is pretty good. But I’ve been at it for 23 years, and my church is in the place where people come to build megachurches. If you can’t build a megachurch here, then you can’t build one anywhere, and I haven’t been able to pull it off.

Bolinger: How far is Saddleback from your church, Cornerstone?

Vaters: A little over half an hour.

Bolinger: How many other large churches and megachurches are within a half hour or so?

Vaters: Maybe a couple hundred.

Bolinger: Wow! What area is served by your church? How far do people come to attend your church?

Vaters: Our town, Fountain Valley, has 55,000 people in it. We border five cities that are many times bigger than ours, including Huntington Beach, Costa Mesa, and Santa Ana, which is the county seat. Toward the beach, you have very wealthy people. Santa Ana is the second most ethnically diverse city in the nation – it’s an amazing melting pot – and most of Santa Ana is lower class and lower middle class. Westminster is almost entirely Asian, specifically Vietnamese. Every city and town is very different, so the area is an interesting conglomeration of people.

Our church draws 50% from Fountain Valley. The other 50% would be from a 15-minute drive outside the city.

Bolinger: I assume that at least some of the megachurches have satellite campuses that are closer to Fountain Valley than the main campuses are.

Vaters: Virtually every megachurch has satellite campuses.

Bolinger: So people in the Fountain Valley area who want to attend a megachurch – main campus or satellite campus – probably don’t have to drive very far. Have you lost people to megachurches?

Vaters: Absolutely. But 20-25% of our congregation used to attend megachurches. It’s probably an even exchange.

Bolinger: When someone who used to attend Cornerstone or another small church decides to head to Saddleback or another megachurch, what are the primary draws or reasons?

Vaters: I think that there are three primary reasons.

The first one is programs. Big churches have programs and resources that small churches can’t offer.

We just lost a fairly long-term couple in our church. They came to me this weekend, and they’re virtually in upheaval or trauma over leaving our church, but it’s because they’ve had massive life changes. They need particular programs for their new family situation that we simply aren’t at a size to offer. We can do more hands-on things than a megachurch can do, but there are certain aspects of this couple’s lives right now that require them to have a professional level of programming for their new family situation, and we just can’t offer that.

The big church has those types of programs, especially for blended families, where the husband and wife each have kids from their previous marriages and maybe kids that they have had in their new marriage. They have three groups of kids under their roof. One group of kids goes off to their dad’s every second week. Another group goes off to their mom’s every second week. The third group stays every week. One kid is in church every second Sunday, another is in church every other second Sunday, and a third is in church every Sunday. Sometimes, bigger churches are able to accommodate that better with schedules for Saturday night services or different options, maybe multiple nights, during the week for youth group.

The second reason is that, often, small churches lack the quality of large churches. Some churches are small because they stink. You can’t deny that reality. Thankfully, unhealthy things don’t grow. People who attend unhealthy churches eventually grow tired of them and don’t want to put up with them anymore. A big church has a guaranteed level of quality.

When I travel, I usually stay in chain hotels. Every now and then, I’ll find a unique hotel in a community, and I’ll read good reviews for it, and I’ll take the risk and stay there. And I may be treated to a place with a great personality. I wish that I could do that every time, but the problem is that I have been burned so many times that, especially if I am traveling on business, it is safer to go to a chain. I just want to know that my bed will be clean. I know that will be the case in a chain hotel. I don’t know that with the others. For a guarantee of quality, I’ll give up the personality.

A lot of people who have spent time in an unhealthy small church don’t want to take the risk of finding a good small church. They take the safe route and go to a big one.

The third reason is this: In a small church, people do get close to one another. The relationships are deeper. But that comes with a shadow side, which is that people hurt each other. Every one of us has people in our lives who have hurt us, relationships that we’ve had to cut off and abandon. If you are hurt by somebody in your small group at a big church, fine: switch small groups, and you never see him again, even though you’re in the same church. But if you are hurt by somebody in a small church, you’re going to see him every Sunday, and sometimes you just can’t do that anymore. There have been people at our church who have gotten divorced. They’ve had to flip a coin to see which one stays at Cornerstone and which one has to find a different church.

Bolinger: So Cornerstone has lost some people to megachurches in the area. But you mentioned that 20-25% of the current Cornerstone congregation used to attend megachurches, and the entire congregation certainly has plenty of megachurch options nearby. What draws people to a healthy small church, and what keeps them there, even in the Megachurch Capital of America?

Vaters: One is the personal relationships. In a small church, you can have a personal relationship with the pastor. One of the things that drives me nuts in the big-church conferences is when they tell you that you have to give up some of your pastoral role and become an administrator. If people complain that they don’t get to know the pastor anymore and can’t contact the pastor personally, you have to tell them that it’s not right to complain about that. I don’t buy that anymore. It’s not wrong for people to want to be pastored by their pastor.

I understand that, when a church grows to a certain size and the pastor can’t be available to every member, you have to train people and rely on “under-shepherds” for pastoral care. But there are a lot of people who feel the need to be pastored by their pastor. If the stats are correct, then over half of the Christians in the world feel that way. It’s important to them that they can get the pastor on the phone. When they’re sick, it’s not just a small group person who comes; it’s the pastor who shows up. When they’re getting married, the person who marries them is the pastor who has sat with them for pre-marriage counseling, not just someone who really doesn’t know them and has to have their names written in front of him even though they have attended the church for 10 years.

People want a personal connection with their spiritual leader. That’s not a bad thing for them to want.

Another thing that a small church offers is a shorter learning curve and more opportunities for people to make mistakes.

I have been the pastor at Cornerstone for 23 years. In the past six or seven years, we have been able to develop a really good worship team and a good system for training people to be a part of a strong worship team. Part of the reason for our success is that we have trained up our own young people.

Last Sunday, we had a drummer who has just turned 14. He has been drumming for us since he was 12. A pastor who visited us last Sunday asked, “How young is that drummer? He looks so young.” When I told him, he said, “Wow. He looks that young, but he is so good that I didn’t think he is that young.” If you didn’t look at him, then there is nothing about his drumming that would indicate that he is not a seasoned drummer.

Part of the reason that he got good fast is that, when he was 12, he was allowed to be on the platform [performing] in the main service. That forces you to get better fast. He was in our worship workshop, where people get trained in their instrument or their voice, and he was just getting to the point where he could drum for a few songs. The worship leader looked ahead on the calendar and realized that, in about three months, there would be a Sunday where every one of the regular drummers would be gone, and the 12-year-old would be the only option. She picked four easy songs and worked with him for a few months to get him ready for that Sunday.

I remember that Sunday. Half the church remembers that Sunday. His mom really remembers that Sunday! We sat there scared but beaming with pride that one of our kids was up there at 12 hitting the drums with the worship team. He had a little trouble keeping up, but he did well.

You can’t do that in a big church. And you shouldn’t do that in a big church. It’s not right in a church of 3,000 – to either the 12-year-old or to the 3,000 people or to the band – to have someone on the big stage who is still figuring it out. But in a small church you can do that – to give people the opportunity to learn as they go and make mistakes.

Another advantage of small churches is that people who have a leadership gift and want to be a part of leadership can do that. Their voice matters more in a small church.

The shadow side of that is that small churches tend to attract control freaks. Big churches tend to attract people who want to be anonymous, and small churches tend to attract control freaks. We’ve each got to protect against those extremes. Each size has its positives, and each size has a shadow side to its positives.

Promoting a Life-Changing Marriage Event

Is it possible for a small church to host a quality marriage event?

The answer is yes! I know what you probably are thinking because I’ve heard it all before and, as a pastor of small churches for almost two decades, I probably thought the same thing.

The reality is that, for an investment of less than $100, your church can host a first-class marriage event. How? I’ll provide all the details in my next article. If you can’t wait, then use the Contact page to indicate that you want to get in touch with me, and the Small Church Central staff will connect us via email. (I would hate to keep you awake at night wondering about this great opportunity!)

There actually is something even easier that your church can do at no cost to your church whatsoever. That is to promote the Weekend to Remember marriage getaway that FamilyLife hosts in approximately 75 cities around the U.S. every year. This event can have a life-changing impact on couples in your church and in your community.

By agreeing to promote a Weekend to Remember event, your church gets some benefits and perks:

  • When your church creates a group name, any couple that registers using that group name will save at least $100 off their registration.
  • As you promote and get couples signed up, it’s easy to earn free registrations that you can give to those in your church (or community) who can’t afford to pay for the marriage event themselves.
  • Your senior pastor and his or her spouse get a free event registration.

Who said that small churches can’t have a big impact? Please reach out (via the Contact page) so we can connect and talk more. I would love to help you as you desire to help others!

Connecting and Building Relationships through Lifetree Café: Part 2

The following is from a fall 2015 interview between Chris Bolinger of Revitalize Ministries and Craig Cable, the National Director of Lifetree Café. The complete interview is in Today’s Vital Church, Volume 2.

To read Part 1, click here.


Cable: We find that we should just say, “God, we’re going to have a room full of people, and we pray that You put the right people at the right tables for the right conversations, because they have been predestined to be here, and You know what is stirring in their hearts. We will sit back and enjoy and marvel at what You are about to do in the next hour.” If you come in with that mindset and relinquish control to the Holy Spirit, you’ll be amazed what happens.

Bolinger: This reminds me of our experiences in youth ministry. We found that the youth who asked the best questions were the “unchurched” kids. The “churched” kids didn’t ask a lot of questions and had the “right” answer to your questions. You have to provide an environment where the “unchurched” kids feel safe enough to ask real questions. We used to encourage our youth to write any question on a piece of paper, and we promised to give them an honest answer to any question, even an embarrassing personal question. It helped to break down barriers.

It seems to me that Lifetree Café has the potential to capture that type of youth group experience for adults. You can develop real relationships so that people are comfortable talking about real things. “I’ve always had this question.” “I’m really struggling with this.”

Does a Lifetree Café have elements of a youth group such as food and icebreakers and games? How long does it take for people who attend a Lifetree Café to get comfortable with sharing? I would think that it would take a while.

Cable: Let me debunk the myth that it takes people time to become comfortable enough in Lifetree to become transparent. That’s actually not true. We find that people are incredibly transparent from the first time they walk in. We liken it to riding an airplane. When you’re on a plane with a perfect stranger sitting next to you, you’ve got nothing to lose. If it were true that, the more time people spent together, the more transparent they became, then we would have churches that are filled with transparent people.

At Lifetree Café, people are incredibly transparent with where their struggles and pain are. You don’t have to guess what it’s about. They are coming for a specific topic that addresses the issue that they are dealing with. They dive into that.

As for having elements of a youth group, we recommend that every Lifetree has complementary snacks. People who have a snack in one hand and a cup of coffee (or water, or tea, or another drink) in the other are far more comfortable. It’s like when someone visits your home. You welcome them in, you tell them that you’re glad they’re there. It’s the nature of good hospitality. If you can show that type of hospitality, people feel comfortable, and they feel safe in opening up.

I’ve seen Lifetrees incredibly stunted in their conversations, and it’s because it’s not the right environment. They haven’t set the stage for transparency because the environment is sterile. And more of an impact on that is if we’re sterile, if we’re not transparent. If people sense that we’re guarded in having an honest conversation, then they’ll be guarded.

A Lifetree is all about fearless conversation. Your thoughts are welcome. Your doubts are welcome. Anything is fair game to talk about here. It’s a guided conversation in that we are focusing on a particular topic but, if in the midst of that if a conversation turns to a different thing, you don’t say, “Wait! I’m sorry that your husband died six months ago, but that’s not the topic here this evening.” If the conversation leads there, then the table conversation goes there.

The Lifetree experience starts with a fairly light, get-to-know-each-other question. As in youth ministry, it’s an icebreaker. It’s a way for you to build comfort and rapport around your people. We don’t have people walk in and join a table and say, “Welcome to Lifetree! What’s your deepest, darkest sin or secret? I’ll give you a few minutes to talk about that.” (Laughs.) It’s something more like, “What was the highlight of your week, and what was a lowlight of your week?” That’s a way to demonstrate that we’re going to practice conversation here. And through the experience, it goes deeper and deeper and deeper.

On a Sunday morning at a typical church, when the message ends, and even before the message ends, people are up out of their seats, and they’re already starting to leave. At Lifetree Café, part of the ministry is what we call After Words. When a Lifetree session ends, people won’t move from their seats for 20, 30, or 40 minutes. That’s because they’re continuing their conversations with the friends at their tables. Sometimes they’ve known these friends for years, and sometimes they have known them for an hour. That’s a true testament to our ministry, when we watch them continue that dialog.

As people critique Lifetree, they sometimes ask questions like, “Why didn’t you unpack the entire Gospel?” Well, for one thing, we have only an hour. But we don’t want the conversation to stop at Lifetree. That’s the head jump that the church has to make. It’s not about you, the church, and what you say.

People who cut their teeth in youth ministry have a much easier time with Lifetree Café. They get it. Others who get it quickly are pastors who are bivocational or who worked in the secular world before they moved into the ministry world. When they see Lifetree and who it’s for, they see themselves. They say, “Boy, I wish Lifetree had been there 20 years ago, when I went through my divorce.” They know what it would have meant to them when they needed that.

If you’ve lived insulated, and you’ve been marinated in a church culture, and you’ve never really experienced the real world, it’s hard for you to relate to the real-world formula or ethos of Lifetree.

Bolinger: …do you…offer training? How should I consult with Group to make sure that my Lifetree Café is running as well as it can?

Cable: We have found that, to do a successful Lifetree, you have to change how you approach doing ministry. It is the antithesis of how we have been trained and how we measure effectiveness. Statistically, you should be able to get the right answer 50% of the time. We discovered with Lifetree that, if we offered a church two choices for how to do Lifetree, the Lifetree way and the traditional church way, 95% of churches would gravitate toward the non-Lifetree way. They had to relearn behaviors and measure things differently. So training is essential.

But churches are very resistant to change. And they were resistant to the training.

Lifetree training is available online. It includes videos and best practices. Whereas before it was required, now it is suggested. We’ll let you make the most common and avoidable mistakes. We hope that the problems that a church encounters are not fatal because, the more people bump into challenges, the more open they are to coaching and development. We love those opportunities to be able to mentor them.

The churches that get it – who understand what they are trying to accomplish and the rhythm of Lifetree – find that Lifetree transforms their churches from the inside out. It’s amazing how transferable the Lifetree training is to other ministries. You will do youth ministry differently. You will do children’s ministry differently. You will do church differently. If they think that Lifetree is a little side ministry and the church is what matters, they will find after a year that they should be doing church like Lifetree. That’s exciting when that happens.

Bolinger: I wonder if house churches are attractive to some because they are more like a Lifetree than like a traditional church. Of course, a church has some elements that you don’t have in a Lifetree.

Cable: Let me clarify that every Lifetree episode, regardless of the topic, always has Scripture and always has a prayer. There’s always a faith “a-ha!”, regardless of whether it’s a light topic or a serious topic. It’s always very intentional. People talk about Lifetree Café as something radically new. It’s so new that it’s about 2,000 years old. There’s really nothing new here. We’re trying to bring it back to what it was all supposed to be about in the first place.

It doesn’t matter what type of church or ministry you are in – if you try to imitate “big church” in a small format, it’s not going to work. How many times have you been to a church plant where they have parking attendants and there are 12 cars? They’re following the wrong model.

Our culture is rejecting the congregational lecture/listener big church model. People are not moving away from Jesus. 30.5 million Americans have walked away from the institutional church, but they are pursuing a relationship with Jesus.

This will be the next chapter of my time at Group. We’re now saying, “How do we help and resource the church in the four walls of the building and outside the building?” The people in the building may say that it’s not church if people are sitting in a living room and talking about life and faith and where Jesus fits into that. It’s seen as “not church” because it misses the trappings or the ways that we measure what church should be. When I walk into a Lifetree and see the conversations of people coming to faith, I ask, “How is that different from the church?” If anything, I see that happening more outside the walls of the church than within the four walls.

Now, I hope that everyone hears me not knocking the four walls of the church. Keep doing what you’re doing. There are people whose needs are being met in the four walls, and that’s where their connections are. For people who gravitate toward an auditory learning style and are looking for that kind of community, the church serves that purpose. But an aircraft carrier can’t be our only method of transportation. We have to have different ways to engage people.

We’re not compromising the tenets of our faith. We are centered on Jesus, but how we do that can take a lot of different forms.

Bolinger: To use a mathematical term, what a church does within its four walls is necessary but not sufficient. It meets the needs of some people, so we shouldn’t stop doing it, but it’s not enough anymore. I’m not sure it ever was enough.

Let’s say that my relatively small church has 10 people who are excited about doing a Lifetree Café, but we’re not sure that the 10 of us can pull it off. Should we look for 10 more people at a church down the street? Or does it work best if a single church does it?

Cable: I would answer with a question: What would preclude the 10 of you from starting a Lifetree? Lifetree actually struggles in larger churches and can explode in a small church. Success has little to do with numbers.

One of the most successful Lifetrees, which is still operating today, started with six women and a minivan. It’s in Fort Dodge, Iowa. It’s a ministry called Cana. They use this ministry to connect with people in their community based on where their own hearts are, for the least of these. Their location was an abandoned space in a strip mall across the street from a women’s detention center. As women walked out of the gate with literally no options, they would walk into Cana. I can’t tell you how many ministries have been spawned out of that ministry: counseling ministries, art ministries, equestrian therapies…all born out of the hearts of six women who have a love for the Lord and a deep love for people who are hurting.

Bolinger: What are the costs to do a Lifetree? Let’s assume that we can find a venue that is free.

Cable: The content is $200 a month. Even with snacks and other expenses, a Lifetree will cost $300 to less than $500 a month total. Most Lifetrees operating outside of church buildings are in venues for which they are not being charged. Some utilize time in local restaurants or coffee houses when there are not many customers there. Some use community centers and YMCAs. Just go where people are gathering already.

When you use a restaurant or coffee shop, it actually helps the business owner. The more foot traffic you can bring in, the more people begin to patronize that establishment. It’s a win-win.

I’m just amazed at how God opens doors that you never thought would be opened. People support it with their presence or their funds. Having a church connection is no indication of success. You just need passionate people who see an opportunity to serve their community in this way. That Lifetree is unstoppable.

Connecting and Building Relationships through Lifetree Café: Part 1

The following is from a fall 2015 interview between Chris Bolinger of Revitalize Ministries and Craig Cable, the National Director of Lifetree Café. The complete interview is in Today’s Vital Church, Volume 2.


Cable: The concept of Lifetree Café was born out of some prayer meetings that started a few years before I joined Group. The prayer meetings were on how to help the church connect with people with whom the church currently is not connecting. Through those weekly breakfast prayer meetings, an idea began to form: what if we created a place where the church and culture could come together and connect and build relationships?

I still remember the day Thom [Schultz] pulled me into his office. It’s always a little intimidating when the founder of the organization wants to see you! He said, “I have this idea. It’s this thing called Lifetree Café.” He explained that it would be a place where Group would provide training and resources to enable a church to create this type of non-traditional worship experience. Thom felt that we have to help churches build bridges to their communities.

He asked me what I thought. I said that I really wasn’t necessarily crazy about the idea. (Laughs.) I was contextualizing it based on my experiences in ministry. It was very different than what I knew and, because of the foreignness of it, I couldn’t get my head around it.

Thom asked me to leave my position as Product Manager and accept the position of Lifetree Café National Director to help further develop this ministry. While I didn’t fully understand the concept, I knew and believed in Thom. If he felt that churches needed this, then I had complete confidence to step out into that unknown to help them.

We conducted our first Lifetree Café session back in November 2007. We had invited lots of friends and family to the inaugural launch. Nothing seemed to go right. In fact, the fire alarm went off twice during the one-hour experience, which was quite unpleasant for everyone. So we spent nearly two more years improving on the experience and determining our content development and training methodologies…

…we launched with seven Lifetree Cafés…Shortly after the launch, we added five more. Believe it or not, the second Lifetree Café to begin operating is still operating today in Eustice, Florida. It’s a real testament to these pioneers who believed in this concept.

Lifetree Café started as a way for churches to connect with their communities through thought-provoking topics that were delivered every week in spaces that resembled a coffee house. We chose a coffee house because it was familiar and felt safe to people to come. We weren’t asking them to step back into a congregational lecture format. It was highly relational, highly conversational. That’s how it began.

Bolinger: My immediate reaction is that it is a great concept but very different from anything that I have experienced in the “church world”. Do people struggle with doubts as to whether or not they actually can do a Lifetree Café and succeed with it? Now that it has been six or seven years since Lifetree Café was first developed, what have you learned? Is there a recipe for success? What are the best practices?

Cable: Chris, we’ve learned a lot…Today, while the Lifetree Café experience can be very consistent from one to another, it behaves more like a content subscription service. Churches can come in as they wish and start subscribing. They can leave if they wish and cancel the subscription.

The one thing that we have been unwavering on is that they can’t modify the experience itself. The Lifetree content is the Lifetree content. They can’t adapt it. We knew, and we’ve seen this first-hand, that it’s not about the leader. It’s about the learner. Lifetree Café creates an experience that helps the people in the room connect with each other and with Jesus. If a church had the ability to modify that content, it would dramatically impact the effectiveness of the experience. We’ve been very rigid at protecting that one-hour experience.

We test everything in our own operating Lifetree, which has been operating every week since 2007. Every week, our Lifetree is open to the community. The people who come from our community may not know that there are other Lifetrees operating around the country. All they know is that they come in and participate in our Lifetree Café experience. We’re not testing occasionally with a focus group. We’re doing this with real people every week.

Over the years, I have found that I can predict fairly early in a church’s Lifetree Café effort, with a fairly high level of accuracy, whether or not the Lifetree Café will be successful. I have launched hundreds of Lifetrees, and we have watched some of those well-intentioned Lifetrees wither and die. The common denominator that will determine a Lifetree’s success is what we call its natural RQ. IQ is intelligence quotient; RQ is a church’s relational quotient.

If a church wants and is willing to commit to being in relationship, not only with each other but also with its community, then that church is going to find every means possible to facilitate connecting in those relationships. When a Lifetree is in the hands of a church that has a naturally occurring RQ and a hunger to grow in relationship with its community, because the people of the church love their community, that Lifetree will flourish. They’ll see new people every week and make hundreds, if not thousands, of relational connections in their community. The Lifetree is just an extension of what God has wired them to be.

Lifetree Café is not the meal. If you believe that faith is a subject to learn, you are going to hold Lifetree Café responsible for something that it was never intended to be. We set the table, and we give a reason to join the table, but the “food” – the actual nourishment that is being given – is a relationship with Jesus Christ that they are going to experience through us.

A church will struggle with Lifetree if the church believes that Lifetree is about what is said from the front. People who come to Lifetree Café will discover Jesus and have an encounter with Jesus through us at the table. If a church has a low RQ, isn’t relational, is protective, is legalistic, is not filled with grace, is not willing to talk about tough subjects, is not hospitable, is guarded, then it will find itself dramatically stunted in building relationships.

It’s tragic, but it’s rare that I find a church that is relationally wired for the success of Lifetree. Lifetree has continued to grow year over year, but it grows at the speed of churches that recognize that Lifetree is an extension of where their passions and love are already.

Bolinger: Does a Lifetree Café have tables of four?

Cable: Yes. Think small and intimate. Most Lifetrees seat 40 to 50 people, never more than 50, at small, café-style tables seating four or in seating clusters of four. There is a host for the one-hour experience, with a video component as part of that experience. Typically, it’s someone’s story shared on film around a topic, and it invites people in the room to discuss the topic and share their own stories.

Topics range from personal need topics, such as loss or forgiveness or grief, to controversial topics, such as the gun debate, legalization of marijuana, or same-sex marriage. Lifetree doesn’t shy away from a topic. We want the faith community and culture in the community at large to come into a conversation. It is rare for a church to want to have that kind of fearless conversation, but those that do really see how powerful this experience can be.

We’re all about tearing down walls. Pastors often tell us that we should have said this or that in the materials. “We could have nailed that conversation and proved to them that they were wrong!” I always tell pastors, “I’m more interested in the relationship than in being right.” I can be right, but that doesn’t mean that we will foster a relationship. We are a place where grace abounds.

The seating arrangement and the topic are amenities. They have their form and their function, but if they are provided without grace, those conversations are going to be stifled.

Bolinger: Do you have someone from the church at each table?

Cable: That is a common question. It stems from the question, “Do you need a facilitator at each table, someone to guide the conversation or just to encourage dialog?” The answer is, “Yes and no.” The “yes” is that we want your people engaged in Lifetree Café because, not only will they get something out of it personally, but also it gives them a chance to share their story. Part of their story is their faith story…

We have this radical idea: trust the Holy Spirit. (Laughs.) I’m not trying to be flippant. We find that God puts the right people at the tables, much better than I can. I see this every single week in our Lifetree.

A couple of years ago, I was sitting at the table, and we were having a fairly benign conversation that went somewhere unexpected. One woman had recently lost her husband when he went out jogging and was hit and killed by a distracted driver like a block from their house. The accident had occurred just a few months prior to that evening. This was one of the first times that the woman had been out of the house with people since the accident.

The man sitting to my right had lost his father years earlier in a tragic murder. He was much farther along in the grief process. He was able to minister to the woman from a point of experience that I never have had. He explained how he had gotten through it, talked about how hard it had been, and empathized with the woman and what she was going through. He ministered to the woman in a way that I couldn’t.

While I could have been the table facilitator, the Holy Spirit had a very different plan. He planted those two people at the same table. That is radically different than what we do when we try to control it.

Uplifting Tweets from Chuck Snyder: Q1 2016

Chuck Snyder’s Twitter feed (@CRSDailyThought) provides a daily thought via a quote, often from a famous person. Here is a sampling of Chuck’s tweets from the first three months of 2016.

Tweets on Light

Tweets on Friendship

Tweets with Tips for Living

Encouraging Tweets

Churches Band Together to Reach Their Community for Christ

Once a vibrant part of a manufacturing corridor that extended from Pittsburgh to Detroit, the Warren-Youngstown area of northeast Ohio has been struggling economically since the steel mills and other manufacturing plants declined and closed a generation ago. Halfway between Warren and Youngstown is Girard, a town of fewer than 10,000 people. In early 2012, Pastor Rhonda Gallagher had to decide if she would agree to lead a tiny Lutheran church in Girard.

Gallagher, who grew up south of Akron and had raised a family a little further south in Massillon, was familiar with Ohio towns whose glory days were in the past. Before interviewing at the church in Girard, “I spent three years at a church in Canton,” she recalls. “Hoover, Timken, and other major employers in Canton aren’t doing as well as they once did.”

She was not familiar with Girard, and her first impression – as she took the Girard exit off the highway – was negative. “It looked very depressed,” she says. “There really wasn’t anything attractive to me about the Girard area. I thought to myself, ‘I can’t see myself living here.’”

She was considering a call to Trinity Evangelical Lutheran Church, which had not had a pastor for nine-and-a-half years. The synod, or denominational governing body, wasn’t sure what to do with Trinity and suggested that the church merge with another ELCA church in a neighboring community.

“The synod actually offered me a three-year contract,” says Gallagher. “I didn’t know what to make of that. No one ever gets a three-year contract. We serve until we are called to another church. When I asked about it, the response I got was that the synod didn’t think that the church would survive much longer. If the church didn’t make it during my three years there, then it wouldn’t be charged against me.”

Gallagher had experience with a dying church. While she served at a church in Canton, that church closed. A building worth $900,000 was sold for just $150,000 to an organization that promised to protect the building from vandalism. That wasn’t enough money to remove the ornate stained glass windows that had graced the building for decades.

“It was heartbreaking,” says Gallagher.

Should she take a job at another dying church in another depressed area? She was reluctant, until the interview at the church.

“When I interviewed, they were so excited about their church and the possibilities that they saw,” she recalls. “They had a desire for growth. An excitement for Christ. They wanted to take back their city for Christ. They persuaded me not only to take the position but to move to the community.”

And Girard is just that: a community. Don’t tell residents that they live in a suburb of Warren or Youngstown, or you’ll get a lecture.

“The roots go deep here,” says Gallagher. “We may be surrounded by Warren and Youngstown, but we see Girard as a place of our own. Many families have lived here for generations. They love Girard. And they want to go to church in their own community.”

There are no megachurches in that community. The largest church is the Catholic church, St. Rose. All of the Protestant churches are small and, when Gallagher arrived, all were struggling. Today, they are doing much better, primarily because they work together.

When Gallagher arrived in town, the ministerial association was relatively inactive. Today, that ministerial association is the epicenter of Christianity in the community. Gallagher has been the driving force behind that change.

“I don’t have the title, but I’m in charge,” she says with a chuckle. “We have learned to cooperate out of necessity. We work together on a lot of things.” She then goes on to list a dozen or more events and initiatives – including vacation Bible school (VBS), National Day of Prayer, united week of prayer, praying for businesses, community Thanksgiving service, community Easter service, and local missions work – in about 10 seconds. “My mom says that I missed my calling as an auctioneer,” she jokes.

Every summer, St. Rose and a half-dozen Protestant churches collaborate on a community-wide VBS that attracts 150 to 200 children. Each year, a different church building is the site of the VBS, and non-host churches take turns leading the week-long event.

“We don’t worry about which church gets more visibility or ends up attracting more people,” explains Gallagher. “We think of ourselves collectively as ‘the church’. We see good in each other’s denominations and individual churches.”

The churches in the Girard ministerial association do pulpit exchanges, usually toward the end of April or in early May. They do Thanksgiving, Good Friday, and Easter sunrise services together. During these cooperative service, a pastor never preaches at his or her own church.

The churches also work together to support the Emmanuel Center, which serves the needy in the community. “We cook at the rescue mission once a month for 150 people,” says Gallagher. “We collect clothing items such as socks and underwear. We collect and distribute school supplies in August.”

Some pastors initially were reluctant to cooperate so frequently with churches in other denominations, but they have been won over by the ministerial association’s consistent focus on reaching people for Christ and serving the community together. “It is common to have a fear of losing your people to another church,” says Gallagher. “My fear is that someone will stop going to any church.

“We have to be unified for Christ,” she continues. “We are made in Christ’s image, not a Lutheran image. We pastors have to lead by example. People watch us everywhere, not just on Sunday mornings.

“By working together, the churches of Girard are tearing down walls and building trust. We still have a long way to go, but we’ve come a long way in just a few years.”

Resources to Help Your Church Reach Couples and Families

This article is excerpts from a fall 2014 interview with David Derry. For the complete interview, pick up a copy of Today’s Vital Church, Volume 1.


Bolinger: Please describe what happens at a Weekend to Remember conference.

Derry: The Weekend to Remember conference is the flagship of FamilyLife. The conference is held around the country in roughly 100 different locations, and those locations can vary from year to year. In northeast Ohio, the conference typically is held in Akron and in Cleveland. The event is a full weekend event at a hotel, and it’s better termed a marriage getaway than a conference.

You check into the hotel on Friday night, you have dinner, and you begin this time together, which will end on Sunday around lunchtime. You’re completely away from the distractions of home, work, and children. You’re spending almost 48 hours totally focused on your spouse and your marital relationship.

Over that time, you’re going to receive a lot of Biblical principles and encouragement in your marriage. There is a lot of humor mixed in the weekend, so it’s a very enjoyable time. You get timeless principles that come from God’s Word as far as what is God’s plan for your marriage and how you can do this successfully with His help. It’s a wonderful opportunity to take some time away, be at the hotel for two nights and two days, and invest in, focus on, and concentrate on each other….

Bolinger: Tell us some of the resources that churches can use and programs that churches can do to reach people, both inside and outside the church, who are going through tough times in their marriages.

Derry: If it happens to be at a time when Weekend to Remember is approaching, then we encourage churches to promote the Weekends in their local church and encourage families to attend who can get to that. Not only can a church make information on the Weekends available, such as showing a video and making brochures available on Sunday mornings, but a church (or an individual, for that matter) also can set up what we call a group name and promote that group name to the folks in their church, promote it to friends and family, post it on Facebook, etc. Any couple that uses that group name to register will automatically get $100 off that registration for the Weekend. Beyond that, once five couples have registered using a group name, the group coordinator automatically gets a free Weekend registration that they can use themselves or offer as a scholarship to another couple that can’t afford to go. That’s how my wife and I use it – we offer it as a scholarship to a couple to allow them to go. The couple who gets the scholarship still has to pay for the hotel room, but the Weekend registration is free.

Of course, the Weekend to Remember typically comes to your area only once a year. And if a couple is struggling, and the Weekend to Remember is not for another six or eight months, you don’t want to tell that couple to wait. We need other options. And we have them.

One of the most popular options is what FamilyLife calls the Art of Marriage. It is a set of resources that were designed specifically to minister with people. These are video resources that FamilyLife has produced and makes available for purchase to individuals or churches. The church or the individual couple, the homebuilder, sponsors and does an Art of Marriage event. It’s not a FamilyLife event. The homebuilder purchases the kit and plays host to and facilitates the event.

There are different resources under the Art of Marriage label. One is a weekend event that in some ways is similar to a Weekend to Remember, but instead of being hosted at a hotel it usually is hosted in a church fellowship hall, family life center, or sanctuary. It could be hosted in somebody’s living room. It’s a Friday night and Saturday event where attendees go through a number of sessions.

The teaching is on video, but it’s very engaging. There are multiple teachers in each session. There is a lot of humor intermixed with it, so it’s not what I would call a “talking head” kind of presentation. It’s a very engaging presentation where numerous different Biblical scholars are teaching on the subjects. If a couple or church is looking for a weekend event similar to a Weekend to Remember, then that is a good choice.

Hosting an Art of Marriage Event

Bolinger: If I sponsor that event, then I don’t have to teach the classes, right? I’m basically just pressing “Play”, and we get to hear from an engaging speaker on the topic. What happens when the speaker is done? Is there activity for the group? What do I have to do as a coordinator?

Derry: It literally is about as easy as pushing “Play”. There are some projects that the couples will complete during the weekend. Those are all in the manuals; each of the participants has a manual for the weekend. The projects and directions for completing them are in there. What the facilitator does really is up to the facilitator. You can just announce the next session and press “Play”. If you want to share more information, you can; it depends on your comfort level and ability.

The beauty of an Art of Marriage event is that participants get a very similar experience, whether there are five couples or five hundred couples. Everybody is getting the same quality of teaching, the same content in the videos. A big church may be able to afford to bring in a special speaker to host an event, but a smaller church may not have the budget for that. This resource levels the playing field for all churches. Any church can purchase the video kit or even borrow the video kit from another church that has used it.

Bolinger: This sounds like a really nice option for many families, especially families with kids. We may live too far away from Cleveland or Akron or another city that has a Weekend to Remember event. Even if we are close enough, we may not be able to afford to attend or to pay for babysitters for an entire weekend. If the host church or couple provides babysitting, then people may be able to attend entirely for free. The church benefits by demonstrating to the couples that they love them and their kids enough to offer the event for free to help the couples strengthen their marriages.

Derry: What we coach churches to do is to consider offering some childcare on site. That’s the most popular option because it enables couples to bring their kids and know that they will be taken care of the entire time. As far as the cost, that is up to each church because it’s their event. Because there is a cost for the manuals, most churches charge some type of admission, but it’s a much lower cost than a Weekend to Remember. If the church wants to charge for childcare or for snacks during breaks, that’s owned and organized by the local church. FamilyLife doesn’t say what you should charge for the event. Some churches do provide the manuals and take that out of their budget and do not charge the people who come. Again, it’s up to the church.

It is a great event. Another thing that is great about it is that it can be offered any time of the year. Unlike Weekend to Remember, which comes once a year, the Art of Marriage is offered by various churches in the Akron/Canton area a dozen or more times each year. You can go on to the Art of Marriage website or the FamilyLife website and locate an event near you. Usually you can find something [that is happening] within a matter of weeks with a very reasonable driving distance.

Bolinger: You said that the Friday evening and Saturday Art of Marriage event is one of the Art of Marriage options. What other Art of Marriage offerings are there?

Derry: Our second most popular Art of Marriage option is our small group offering. It’s a six-week video kit for small groups. The content on the videos is similar to the weekend videos, but each video is about half the time. Instead of being between 45 minutes and an hour, each video is about 25 to 30 minutes.

The reason for that is the small-group workbook has a lot of discussion questions, and you’re going to spend about half the time talking through them as a group. In the weekend event, you don’t discuss questions as a group. You watch the videos, you answer some questions individually, and you complete three projects with your spouse, but you’re not asked to share or discuss things with other couples who are there. The very nature of a small group is that you are going to have discussions. So the small-group resource is designed for small groups with discussions.

The other resource that we have in the Art of Marriage family is called Art of Marriage Connect Groups. They are also small groups, but they are not video-based. You have a workbook that you use, but the whole thing is basically discussion-oriented. There’s not a lot of teaching.

You need a facilitator whose role is to keep the conversation on track for the topics of that week. The Art of Marriage Connect Groups are topical. During the six weeks, you’ll talk about communication as a couple, how to resolve conflict, how to manage finances as a couple. You’re spending a longer period of time going deeper on one particular topic. With the Art of Marriage small group or weekend event, you do an overview and some nuts and bolts of Biblical principles of marriage on a general level.

Engaging with Couples through Art of Marriage

Bolinger: What has your experience been with how churches are using these various Art of Marriage resources?

Derry: Marriage is something that you have to work on 365 days a year. Rather than just promoting the Weekend to Remember when it comes to the area or offering an Art of Marriage event once a year, we encourage churches to provide multiple opportunities throughout different seasons of the year. A couple might be doing fine today, but then multiple different things could happen. They can have a loss of a job. They can have a loss of a child. They may find themselves in a different phase of life or a different situation where, if they are struggling financially, that may create conflict. Just because a couple is doing fine now doesn’t mean they will be doing fine the rest of the year.

Let’s say that Weekend to Remember comes to your area in March. Go ahead and promote that event in January and February. Consider offering an Art of Marriage weekend or small group in other parts of the year – definitely in the fall, but at other times, too. Try to make numerous options available throughout the year.

Think about how you can have an ongoing marriage emphasis that occurs in your church that’s not just a once-a-year or once-every-few-years type of thing. That way, when people find themselves in a place where they’re struggling, there are options available, and they can get some help right away.

Bolinger: Obviously, David, when there’s a struggle or a crisis, you want to engage a couple quickly and stay with them for as long as it takes to get them out of that situation. But all of us need some fine-tuning. We need a lot of help, a lot of the time. (Laughs.) 

Derry: When people look at one of our Art of Marriage resources, or even Weekend to Remember, they often ask, “Now, is this for people who are really struggling, for people who find themselves in crisis, or are these resources or events for people who are doing fairly well and just want to do a check-up or a tune-up?” My answer to these questions is always, “Yes.” It is for all those different groups of people. That’s because the events and the resources are based on Biblical principles of marriage, so they work in any situation with any couple at any season of life. They are adaptable to wherever a couple might be.

When you walk into a ballroom for a Weekend to Remember, you don’t realize it, but there are people there who are in every situation that you can possibly imagine, and then some. You have people there who are engaged. You have people who are married and very, very happy, doing well. You have people who are struggling. You have people who are there as a last-ditch effort; if something doesn’t happen that weekend, they are calling the attorney on Monday to file papers. You have people who are in the process of divorce. And you actually have people in that room who are divorced but who are second-guessing if that was the right decision. I know one couple who jokingly says that their divorce just didn’t work out; they remarried after they attended a Weekend to Remember.

Because these are Biblical principles, they will work no matter where you are along that paradigm. Deciding which resource to choose really isn’t the issue. You have to decide if you are willing to listen to the Biblical principles that are shared and, if you listen to them and you apply them to your life and your marriage, they will help you, whether they just give you a shot in the arm or help you get back to where you need to be.

If a couple who comes to any event or small group is really in crisis, what they need to realize is that it’s not a magical fix. You don’t come in completely broken and leave completely fixed. Only on TV does it work out that nicely. What the event or small group does is give you some help and some hope that this is something that, with God’s help, you can do. You have to realize that it’s going to take a while to work through some of these things. It might take counseling. But if you are committed to make it work, the Biblical principles will give you the foundation on which to build.

It will take a lot of effort, as does any marriage. You know as well as I do that, if you’re going to have a healthy marriage, it takes a whole lot of work just continually moving forward. When you’re in crisis and your marriage is falling apart, it’s going to take even more effort to get things back to what you really want it to look like long-term.

Bolinger: That’s where the church can play a vital role. You’re enabling churches not just to invite people to Weekend to Remember events but to stay engaged with them.

Derry: The Art of Marriage enables churches to establish relationships with couples more naturally than Weekend to Remember. Instead of people attending an event in a hotel ballroom, they are attending an event at a local church. Follow-up is much more natural and happens more easily, because the church is connected with them right off the bat.

Of the people who walk into a ballroom at a Weekend to Remember, about 40% of them are not connected to any church. They might have found out through a friend. They might have Googled just to find some help with their marriage because they knew they are in trouble. We have to work very intensely to try to connect them back to local churches that can continue to walk with them after the event. Art of Marriage enables churches to engage in their lives much more easily and in a shorter time period to be able to help them post-event

More Art of Marriage Options

Bolinger: David, you mentioned that some of the Art of Marriage resources that are designed for small groups are topic-oriented. What are some of the topics that are covered?

Derry: Some are general; some are much more specific. One that I encourage churches to start with is called Building Your Marriage to Last. It gives a general overview of the Biblical principles of marriage. More specific ones include one on communication, one on conflict, one on finances, one on growing together spiritually as a couple. There also are different parenting studies such as disciplining a toddler and parenting a teenager.

We have a newer Art of Marriage Connect Group that’s called Marriage in the Second Half, for couples around 25 years who are facing things – such as empty nest, retirement in the relatively near future – that are good in some ways, even things to celebrate, but which also bring into a marriage some unique challenges. A lot of times, a couple has focused on their children for most of their marriage, and when those kids move out, suddenly it’s just the husband and wife, and sometimes they look at each other and say, “We don’t know each other quite as well as we thought we did, because we have spent so long focusing more on the kids than on our marriage.”

There are over 15 different topics – parenting and marriage – from which a church can choose depending on the needs that are there among the couples who want to go through something.

Bolinger: And these tend to be six-week series, six weeks if you do one session per week?

Derry: For the most part, yes. Some may be five, some may be seven, but six weeks is what we were shooting for when designing these. It’s a long enough time that couples can begin to get to know each other and trust each other, but short enough that you don’t lose people who can’t commit to every week for 10 weeks or 12 weeks.

Bolinger: A church has a couple of options here. If you know who will be coming and you have a good feel for where they are in life, then you might pick a couple of them that seem the most applicable to those who are likely to attend. But if you are casting a wide net and inviting a wide range of people, and you’re not sure who is going to come, then you may get people in all different stages of marriage and situations. If your church has enough facilitators and enough rooms, then you could run two or three different series at the same time and appeal to different audiences. A financial one has broad appeal, but it may attract a lot of younger couples who don’t have kids yet. A lot of folks may attend a parenting series. Older couples whose kids are in college or beyond, or maybe nearing that stage, may go to the Second Half series.

If a church keeps varying the series, couples who attended one series will come back for another that is a good fit.

Derry: Exactly, Chris. What we know from working with a lot of churches is that it is not a cookie-cutter process. We don’t come in and say, “You should do A, B, and C, because every church does A, B, and C, and this always works well.” When we sit down with a church or a couple that is a Home Builder, we ask what they are doing now and where they sense that God is leading them and calling them to help. “What does that look like as you begin to dream about what you could do?” Then we suggest tools and resources that they can use. But every church and every situation is different.

Some churches offer a couple of different series at the same time. A church could do a marriage small group study and a parenting small group study at the same time. They could move from one to the next. A church may repeat Building Your Marriage to Last every six or eight weeks and take six groups through it in a year, or they might take one group and run it through different studies, and it could take that group years to get through all the different topics. There is no right way or wrong way to do it. You can make a variety of topics available, and people can jump in and get on board whenever they need to and want to, so that help is always available.

Bolinger: Let’s say that my wife and I are impacted greatly by a particular study. We may say that next time we want to be the facilitators for this study and invite our friends and neighbors. It made a positive difference in our marriage, and we want to see other couples benefit from it. It doesn’t have to be at a church; I could purchase the materials and do it in my home, and maybe attract people who don’t go to my church and don’t want to go to my church.

Derry: What happens when you have a group of six couples go through a study is that some number, maybe five, of them go on to do another study of a different topic, but one of those couples says, “We really want to take some other people through this on our own.” That couple pulls away and starts another group on the same topic. You can’t predict how it is going to work. It really is about how God is calling and using people to do it. We don’t want to get in the way and tell them to do it a different way.

Helping Blended Families

One other resource that we haven’t talked about yet is Smart Stepfamily. There is a book and a video study by Ron Deal, who has been one of the leading experts in stepfamily, or blended family, ministry for a long time. He actually joined the staff of FamilyLife a few years ago, and that brings a whole new paradigm to FamilyLife where we’re much better able to help blended families or stepfamilies. That’s an area that churches typically are not really comfortable or educated enough on what to do.

We all know that there are some unique challenges that come with that. If we know people who are in a second or third marriage, then we realize that, for example, during holiday seasons, they go through some unique challenges that we don’t necessarily have in a family where all the kids are ours biologically. You’re dealing with stepparents and step-grandparents and other things that make it more complicated.

FamilyLife has resources that individuals can use in their living rooms for just their families or for other families that they invite to be a part of that study. Some churches are beginning to launch stepfamily ministries, or blended family ministries, to help these families succeed. We know that statistically a second or third marriage is even more likely to end in divorce than a first marriage. It’s so much harder, and people get discouraged and give up because they don’t see any way to make it work. If you base it on Biblical principles then, yes , it’s still hard, and you’ll have to put in extra effort, but that marriage can work because God tells you how you can build that marriage on Biblical principles. It has been exciting to see churches and people beginning to use those blended family resources.

Why Collaborate?

There are many challenges we face as leaders, such as:

  • Burnout and loneliness
  • Similar burnout and loneliness among others who lead with us
  • Lack of new leaders
  • Lack of vision or creativity and resulting struggles with casting a vision
  • Lack of buy-in for our vision

I believe that one simple thing can provide solutions to all these challenges: the practice of collaboration. And I’d like to share the story of how I began to learn it.

A few years ago, I returned to the U.S. after a mountain-top experience visiting my homeland of Australia. Although my time there was wonderful, the tearful goodbyes and return to my life in the U.S. awakened my grief at the loss of home and family. The many hours spent beach-combing for exquisite shells there remained with me, and I found myself wandering my inner-city Cincinnati streets and continuing the same habit of collecting – not shells but broken things. I didn’t realize that I was doing it until things began gathering in a box by my back door.

During this time, a friend invited me to make art for his counseling center for inner-city kids. I knew that such art needed to be honest about the challenges of life but also hopeful. So it seemed fitting to make something out of the junk I’d gathered from the same streets where these kids live. I began to see the trash in new ways, no longer signs of something discarded but opportunities for something new. My habit of collecting broken things changed with my new perspective—I began looking for the perfect piece of glass or green bottle cap to complete my creation. Somehow—and I don’t know exactly the moment it happened—I began to be drawn into the re-creation.

As I began to see the potential for healing and hope in this repurposing of junk, I wanted to invite my community in some way. The city was still recovering from race riots, and tension had become a normal part of life in the neighborhood. So I considering making more of this art and having a little one-woman art show.

But I’m glad I didn’t. If I had, then I would have missed the opportunity to learn the power of collaboration. I realized that the power was not in looking at the art but in creating it.

And so I created “The Collect: A City-Wide Trash to Art Event.” Through local media, I invited local folks to donate their junk at any of six cafes across the city. Among the treasures offered, we got a watch-band collection and box of camera lenses and a pair of old shoes. A team of 18 artists chose the trash that most inspired them and transformed it into amazing art, which we auctioned for charity.

During this six-month process, as I worked with local media, cafe’s, artists, and neighbors, the project took on the color of many stories and became so much more interesting and multi-faceted than if I’d done it alone. I started watching how we all felt a little homeless, how we all longed to belong somewhere. I had an opportunity to hear stories of how others were also taking what felt broken—in themselves and their communities—and were finding new ways to create something new.

By the end of this collaborative process, I felt part of something. I felt home.

If I had just done a one-woman art show, I would have tried, and probably failed, to solve my problems alone. I would have missed the opportunity to let the community shape the idea. Instead, I invited others to see behind the scenes, to join the process. Although I started it, I lost track of whether I was making it or it was making me.

We think the product is the point, but community grows in the process. Our call as leaders is not to show our plans but ourselves.

As pastors, we think it’s our job to fully shape a five-year plan and sell it to folks. But what if we brought people into the process much earlier and allowed them to help shape the vision? What if we trusted that the best ideas grow from the community and that, when folks help shape and execute ideas, there’s no point at which we have to push for “buy-in”? Might we feel less lonely, less burned-out? Might the ideas be bigger and more beautiful? Might they connect more with our communities (since that’s where they grew)? Might the process of working together itself develop leaders and community?

Beyond all this, the most beautiful part of collaboration is this: one of our deepest human longings is to feel a part of something bigger than ourselves. When we have a seed of an idea and plant it in a community, we get to watch it take on life and color which we, alone, could never have created. In collaboration, the folks in our community get to enjoy the unfolding with us, watching God in his creative element. Whatever we’re making takes on the story of the soil from which it grows. Although we were the instigator of this idea, we can look over the life that grows from it and know it was bigger, more beautiful, and more multi-faceted than we could have created alone. We feel a small part of something large. And there is no shame in the smallness. It’s a moment as transcendent as taking in the stars on a clear night or singing in a choir when we feel our connection to one another and to God.

Collaboration is permission to be human, together.

Reaching Men, Part 3: Man-Friendly Music and Sermons

This series is comprised of excerpts from Chris Bolinger’s interview with David Murrow, author of Why Men Hate Going to Church and three other books. For the complete interview with Murrow, pick up a copy of Today’s Vital Church, Volume 1. For more insight from Murrow, visit http://churchformen.com or pick up a copy of one of his books.

Part 1 of the series

Part 2 of the series

Part 3 of the series: below


Bolinger: Is traditional music more appealing to men, especially men who don’t like to sing? What’s the best approach to music that you have found in your studies and your experience?

Murrow: Like you said, there are different kinds of men. There are men who are really into contemporary worship. I think that they tend to be the minority, but they are really into it.

Here are just a few best practices:

  1. Don’t repeat songs over and over and over and over. There was a tendency about 10 years ago for songs to just go on for seven, eight, nine minutes long. That really frustrates men.
  2. Play music in a key that men can sing.
  3. Avoid what I call the love songs to Jesus: the songs that describe Christ as our love object rather than our leader. (I’m desperate for you…I’m longing for you.) Think about the mental gymnastics that have to take place in a man’s mind as he pictures himself being desperate for Jesus or reclining in Jesus’s arms or being held by Jesus. It’s really a high hurdle. I mean, I suppose if a guy’s gay that’s probably a very appealing image, but for a straight man that’s probably not a really appealing image. So you just need to be really careful with that sort of imagery.
  4. You said you have a men’s Bible study and you sing. Usually, I recommend that men’s small groups don’t sing, especially in the morning. Just get right down to business. If you are going to sing, then sing one song and be done with it – one song with two or three verses, four or five minutes tops, just to get the blood flowing, and then get into it. The men are not there to sing.

When men come to church, they want to learn a mind-blowing truth about God that rocks their world. That’s why they’re there.

Bolinger: At my church, we do five worship songs before we get to the sermon. I sometimes think that’s a bit much, at least for some of the men. So if we were to make a change to be more man-friendly, what could we replace one of the songs with? We don’t necessarily want to do a call and response or something else where men have to read back a long passage because some men don’t really like to read either. So what would be a good alternative to maybe that fourth or fifth worship song?

Murrow: You have the full range of creativity at your beck and call. You can do skits. You can play a video. You can do an object lesson. I think one of the great indictments of the church is how uncreative we are. We all have our liturgies, even if we don’t acknowledge that. We tend to do the same thing in the same order, week after week after week. When we break up that routine, when we are little bit more creative, I think we put men on their toes. Men really do like the unexpected.

At church we tend to get into our routine. We get into our liturgy, whether we are Baptist or Methodist…we’ve all got our liturgies, and we just tend to ride that horse week after week. We do four or five songs, we have an offering, we do a sermon, we do communion…we become very predictable. One of the hallmarks of Christ was his unpredictability. He was always doing and saying things that were completely off-the-wall.

The church that I attend here in Alaska used to be that way, about 10 years ago: very unpredictable. Crazy things would happen all the time. I came to church anticipating that a creative, unusual thing was going to happen. We don’t do that anymore. We’re out of our adolescence. We’re a 25-year-old church now and we’ve settled into our dull routine. It really makes me sad.

Bolinger: OK, let’s spend some time on another big topic which is the lesson or the sermon: the teaching time that’s part of the worship service. You said that Jen is choosing man-friendly topics with titles where men will say, “Oh, I want to hear more about that.” Talk more about sermons. I think that in your book you wrote that a typical man appreciates a different type of approach to a sermon than a typical woman.

Murrow: I don’t even want to say it the way you said it. I don’t think that many women have a different approach. I think that if you do a man-friendly sermon, both men and women will understand it well. Women are blessed with a very flexible, multitasking brain. Women can “do masculine”, but men don’t usually do well with highly verbal, feminine-type presentations. So, if you preach to the men, the women are going to enjoy it as well.

This is a good piece of advice for all pastors: all things being equal, shorter sermons are better with men.

Bolinger: When you say “shorter”, how short is shorter?

Murrow: Let’s be even more fundamental than that. Obviously, you need to have something to say. You can’t just go to the pulpit with a bunch of familiar, Christianese-type things. You’ve gotta have a message. You have to have something to say that’s going to be life-changing.

If I were going to plant a church in the next year, I would preach 10-minute sermons, and I would market my church that way: home of the 10-minute sermon. I think within a year, the church would be packed. When people are polled, long, boring, irrelevant sermons is the number one thing that people don’t like about church. Do you know which churches in North America have the largest gender gaps? African-American churches, which have a tradition of very long preaching – 90 minutes to two hours is not uncommon, so three-hour worship, and 90-120 minutes of that is the sermon. I’ve sat through those sermons, and typically it’s a lot of very familiar things repeated over and over and over again. “This is the day which the Lord hath made…” You know, it’s just not really groundbreaking material.

So, all things being equal, shorter is better than longer.

The other way to get men in the door is to use an object lesson consistently. Men are visual learners, and although men appreciate a verbal sermon, they absolutely glom onto a visual sermon. A lot of skilled preachers are using video to supplement their sermons, but the very best thing is for the pastor to actually bring an object into the pulpit when he or she speaks. Whenever I work with pastors on their sermons, I always ask, “What’s your object lesson? What are you going to build this sermon around?”

The last time I spoke in a church, I spoke from inside of a box. The next week I planned a sermon with a guy – I had him on a ladder; he preached from the top of a ladder. I worked with my pastor a couple of weeks ago on a sermon where he was talking about the difference between grace and works, and he used a debit card versus gift card. He built his entire sermon around a debit card, which is where you pay in and you pay in and then you withdraw your own goodness out of the bank versus a gift card where God just gives and you spend it on whatever you want.

If a pastor really wants to turn his church around and get men in the pews, the most effective thing that he can do is to preach a concise sermon and build it around an object lesson. If a pastor will do that, then he will have a church full of men in five years. I’m not even going to talk about theology or content. I’m just saying mechanically that’s the best thing you can do: short, concise sermon built around an object lesson.

Bolinger: A lot of pastors try to structure their sermons around three points or four points, oftentimes starting with the same letter. Is that good for men, or is it better to have an object lesson? Obviously, if you have an object lesson, then you have one object, so you have one main point. So men would rather have a single point than three or four points to remember?

Murrow: Yes.

Bolinger: What about the aspect of a story? I know that a lot of times I won’t remember the main points of the sermon – if there is an object lesson, then I’ll remember the object; if there is a prop, then I’ll remember the prop – but I remember good stories. Is that a unique thing for men or is that across gender: the fact that people really remember stories that are integrated into a sermon?

Murrow: Stories can be very powerful. That is the part that we tend to remember; our brains are wired to remember stories. We’ve been telling stories around the campfire for thousands of years. So stories are important. The most skillful preachers don’t just salt their verbal sermons with stories – oh, that’s a nice illustration. Instead, they build their entire sermon around an illustration, a central story, a central metaphor, and they go back to that story over and over and over again. So you might start off with the story of Abraham Lincoln attending church, and then all through your sermon you keep bringing it back to that, you just keep hammering that point home. It’s like in the Army: you tell ‘em what you’re gonna tell ‘em, you tell ‘em, and they you tell ‘em what you told ‘em. If a guy can walk away from a church service with one big idea, he is going to love going to church. The problem is that we give them so much content on Sunday morning, and it’s such a cornucopia, a salad bar of different theological truths, that men end up walking away with nothing.

It’s time for the three-point sermon to die, unless all three points support one big idea. You really just need to go to one-point sermons and make that point well and then trust the Holy Spirit to further illuminate the text during the week.

Bolinger: And that big idea needs to be something actionable, right? Something that he can do something with when he leaves the building and goes into his regular life, is that true?

Murrow: Well, that would be the best: actionable. Or just something that changes his mind about something. Something that opens his mind to a new possibility. The best sermons that I’ve ever heard are ones that just really challenged me in my personal life.

We’re talking about the importance of visuals. Let me take you back to Saint Martin’s Lutheran Church in Houston, Texas in 1966. I am five years old. Pastor Lorenz calls the children forward for the kids’ sermon. Pastor Lorenz asks for a volunteer. David Murrow puts his hand up in the air. I walk over to Pastor Lorenz, he hands me a sheet of paper and he says, “David, would you tear this sheet of paper in half?” And I tear the sheet of paper in half. Then he reaches over and hands me a phone book and he says, “David, would you tear this phonebook in half?” And I pull and tug and work as hard as I can on it but nothing. I can’t do it, right? Then Pastor Lorenz turns to me and says, “David, this is why you want to go to church every Sunday. When all these pages are together, we are strong, but we when we are just one page out there by ourselves, the devil can come along and tear us up.” Now here I sit in my home in Alaska and I can still tell you word for word what I heard 48 years ago when I was a five-year-old kid because it was short, it had a visual, and I got to do it with my own hands.

So if you want to become a great teacher of men, you need to develop sermons and curriculum that involve hands-on learning that people personally experience. That’s where the rubber meets the road when it comes to men.

Pastors are taught in seminary to speak words. They are not taught to implant truth. And I think actually in seminary they kind of dismiss these sorts of methods as “entertainment”. “Oh, that’s just entertainment. You’re just entertaining the crowd. What people need is the true meat of God’s word, which is spoken words from a person’s mouth.”

I think that in the church today we only trust two paths: mouth-to-ear and book-to-eye. Those are the two paths through which God’s pure truth passes. We’re just so far behind on this. We live in a highly visual culture. We’re quickly transitioning out of a mouth-to-ear and word-to-eye type of communication regime, and yet we stubbornly cling on those because we think anything else is just entertainment and pandering to the weak in the lowest common denominator. It just infuriates me when that elitism rears its head, and we tend to characterize anything besides book-to-eye and mouth-to-ear as unspiritual. It’s just wrong.


For the rest of the interview with David Murrow, pick up a copy of Today’s Vital Church, Volume 1.

Copyright 2015, 2016 Revitalize Ministries, Inc. All rights reserved.